The Chowhound Sandbox

Many of the folks who read this blog know that I used to be a frequent Chowhound poster who was asked to leave after refusing to bend to Jim Leff's will after being accused of "shilling".

I've refrained from posting about it on Gastronomie primarily because at the end of the day, it's Jim's sandbox, and he can do whatever he wants, I suppose.  And, the truth is that there are a whole lot of really friendly, kind, active posters over there who, in their own words, "put up with his arrogance" in an effort to create a nice little community for themselves.

But I discovered something today, while researching dining options in Chicago for an upcoming conference, that really pissed me off.

In this thread about Sweet & Savouries restaurant (caution: link has audio), one woman posted a very negative comment about being refused an a la carte menu, despite there being one on the restaurant's website. While I agree that this is a pretty unsettling situation to walk into, particularly if one has a budget to stick to, she never talked about the food, or the service, or anything else that supposedly makes Chowhound such a bastion for "don't-call-me-a-foodie" foodies.

Later in the thread, it becomes obvious that the discussion had veered into "off-topic huffiness" and in true Chowhound form, those posts had been promptly deleted. No surprise there, I thought.

Until.  I went over to LTHForum and found this thread, which blows the whistle on the fact that  David Richards, the proprietor and chef of Sweets & Savouries, posted a response to the original poster, advising that (a) on the night in question, the a la carte menu was, in fact, available and that several other tables had ordered from it and (b) he had refunded the full $400 tab back to the patron's credit card after receiving an email expressing her dissatisfaction.

Guess what? It was deleted, on the "moderator's" (censors?) whims. As were the posts following its deletion, asking the original poster to clarify whether she had, in fact, been comped.

Here's the REALLY ironic part about all this: the LTH thread wasn't even all that complimentary towards the restaurant. But -- and here's what distinguishes one man's playground from a REAL community -- the thread evolved. And a real discussion was had.  And no one's posts were deleted.

I'm not saying all this to bash Chowhound, or to tell you not to frequent the site. Because, really, it can be a good resource (obviously, since I'm still using it for research). Just be aware that you may be getting a somewhat narrow, "houndish" view of the restaurant world.

 

Technorati Tags: Food | Food & Drink | Chowhound | San Francisco | Chicago

Comments

[daniel]

whoa girl, ure infamous :-)

[haddock]

Plus the interface SUCKS. It takes forever to load, etc. It might work as a listserv but for a website it stinks.

[sam]

that's shocking. I am glad I washed my hands of Chowhound's biased reporting a long time ago. I am also surprised the OP actually accepted a full refund. It didn't sound like her experience was bad enough to warrant that level of compensation. I hope she spends the money on giving S&S another chance. For such a big gesture, I think they certainly deserve it.

[a geek]

I too left Chowhound after repeatedly noticing the very heavy hand of stealth-moderation. It might be one thing to close a thread/discussion with a reason, but Chowhound's secretive deletion of threads (and secret list of disallowed restaurants) really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I do highly recommend egullet, though the SF board needs more posters (hint hint).

[Lenn]

That is amazing. Call me naive, but it never even crossed my mind that this sort of censorship (let's call it what it is) would be happening on any site of that ilk.

I guess it was bound to happen somewhere, sometime...but that doesn't make it any easier to swallow (pun definitely intended).

Maybe they booted you out because you only posted twice a month...like here on Gastronomie lately ;) (just teasing).

[Tana]

I got the boot, too, for the stupidest reason. Stupid to me, that is. I work for some restaurants for trade: web design and photography. Because I am not stupid, I only pick GOOD restaurants to trade with. Why would I want to trade with a yucky place? So in recommending my favorite places to people, and fully disclosing my relationship with them, how is that shilling?

I feel like Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Nitwits.

[Tana]

And P.S., eGullet is heavily moderated, secretly and with heavy prejudice. But that is fare for another blog entry another time.

[Fat Mookie]

Well, as Tana says, each food site seems to have its own style of moderation, and you can't judge it by what you see on that site. egullet hasn't had any posts on their site discussion board since February. Is that because nobody has any questions? No (with all the threads that used to happen on their site discussion board I find that unlikely), it's because they moderate that board and, I assume, don't let any of the questions get posted. One way to deal with unhappy posters is to give them no outlet on your site, which seems to be the route egullet chooses.

I've helped out on moderating a non-food site before, and what I can tell you is that there is most likely more to this picture than you see. You wouldn't believe half of the things that happen "behind the scenes". But since Chowhound won't explain it, it has to come down to this- do you trust the people who run this site or not? If you do, then you have to trust there are reasons for moderating the site the way they do. If you don't, then you ought to view whatever the site presents as possibly tainted with the site owners' agenda, and find another site where the site owners' reasons for deletion (don't delude yourself that any site doesn't remove posts) are more transparent, or at least more acceptable to you.

[Christian]

Chowhound really had something against me and I could never figure out why until I realized they were confusing me with somebody else. They had a heyday deleting my posts, all of which abided by their rules. They deleted posts where I simply asked questions about their policies and could never give a straight answer as to why they deleted any particular post, which proves that they did not have a good reason for deleting my posts. Not surprised to see so many other perturbed people. If there is not other good LA/OC board I will start one on my own.

[shuna fish lydon]

Fatemeh,

I think it's great that you are writing about this. I like to think that Chowhound is the way I was able to meet you and a few others I love and sappreciate to this day.

I had he same experience as Christian did-- I sent many emails asking particular questions about the rules and none were answered. But when I made a mistake I received the most bile induced, humiliating, mean email about my rule-breaking ways.

They say an AA meeting starts with a coffee pot and a resentment, maybe the same goes for food bulletin boards?

{and hey Fat Mookie-- thanks for your illuminating respnse!}

It's a shame that even with the more attractive new interface that Chowhound is still a cult of personality for the founder and his team. Most online discussion forums are under-moderated, but CH goes too far toward over-moderation. It's not a problem to be subject to a consistently strict set of rules, but it is a problem to have rules that seem nothing more than personal whims that don't have to be explained.

Posting at Chowhound is always a crapshoot. Sometimes, the censor on duty at the moment will delete something he or she dislikes immediately. At other times, a similar post will stay up for days only to be taken down after generating a lengthy thread that is seen by thousands of readers. After that degree of exposure, what's the point of deletion? Clearly, the Chowhound censors cannot stay on the treadmill they have created, but they keep embarrassing themselves and alienating people by trying. Chowhound claims that it is "narrowly focused." A better choice of words would be "narrow minded."

[Chubbypanda]

Fatemeh,

I just finished my own two-month wrangle with the "Chowhound Team", the details of which I've posted on my blog if you're interested.

Chowhound Board Nazis (the Conclusion) - [Crazies]

I ended up coming to the same conclusion you did - It's just not worth it.

- Chubbypanda

http://www.chubbypanda.com

[gmoney]

i agree..chowhound sucks...they censor anything that doesnt bring in revenue for them..probably have agreements with certain restaurants to delete posts about their competition..stick with yelp. more unbiased

[Craig Hunt]

I have had the same experience with Chowhound. A fellow poster criticized a restaurant that I like for being "snooty" and suggested that another was better. I found an NY Times review of this supposedly better restaurant which was decidedly negative and posted quotes from it as a rebuttal.

My post was taken down without warning by Chowhound and I am blocked from further posting. Seems extreme? Too bad it's true.

[Curmudgeon]

Indeed, Chowhound does suck. And even more important it is an unreliable source for reviews. Where I live, in El Cerrito, one of the most obsessive posters is someone who has a tin palate, and wouldn’t be able to differentiate good food from bad. I have been censored more time than I can remember. Most recently it was for expressing disappointment that Trader Joe’s has discontinued Stoned Wheat Thins, and that their lines are too long. I was also censored about concern over using ingredients coming from China. [edited by site owner to remove personal and inappropriate content]

[Sami]

Have you ever "tried" to get something removed from Chowhound? It is virtually impossible. I posted some things that offended co-workers and requested their removal several times. Months later, they are still out there. I was told it is against their policy.

[kaszeta]

Myself, I've been surprised to find that a large fraction of my comments get pulled from Chowhound immediately after posting, and I'm unable to figure out why. Most are just informative. Several are positive. Several are negative (but mostly in the "I don't care for them" or "quality is sliding way").

[Sami]

Kaszeta, I reached my final limit with Chowhound when I put a post out about the Foodnetwork and it disappeared in the time it took me to do the dishes. And no, I never got an explanation in my e-mail for the removal like they say they do. The irritating part is that they allowed a similar post to stand for weeks that pretty much said the same thing as mine (posted after mine). So, the posts I have asked to be removed still stand and the things I try to post get removed immediately. I logged out the night they took my post off and will never log back in to post. The sad part is that I do have contributions to make because I eat out a lot but now they will never be seen.